I first heard Joze while sitting at my desk, at home, during a mundane workday.
The soft “ding!” of my inbox signals my ear to a new email.
Clicking in, I see it’s from Creative Mornings, a network for creative-types. It includes an inspirational video presentation on inclusion and resilience.
Sounds good to me.
Without paying much attention to who would be sharing I click on the video so it will begin playing, and return to my work.
After awhile something in the audio catches my ear, so I click through several of different views open on my laptop until I come back to the video screen — low and behold, the man speaking is stuttering. It’s Joze Peranian.
Everyone has a stutter. Everyone has this inner stutter. For someone it could be the fear of failure. For someone it could be the fear of judgment, the fear of rejection, the fear of success.
Joze Piranian, International Public Speaker
His zeal is palpable.
He’s extremely intelligent.
It’s so obvious that he’s done the inner-work that comes from much self-introspection.
I don’t even wait until the end of the presentation before I am looking for him online, for a way to contact him. Locating his website, I send him an invitation to be a guest on my new podcast.
I don’t know if he’ll accept or not, so it is delightful to receive his affirmative response a few days later.
And this interview is what happened a couple of weeks following that. Enjoy!
Learn more on Joze’s website. Click here for Joze Piranian’s website
Transcript
Paul Cram: I’m Paul Cram. Joined today by Joze Piranian. He is a lifelong stutterer turned Forbes-featured Tedx speaker on inclusion and resilience.
Joze Piranian: Everyone has a stutter. Everyone has this inner stutter. For someone it could be the fear of failure. For someone it could be the fear of judgment, the fear of rejection, the fear of success.
Paul: Born and raised in Lebanon, Joze avoided speaking for more than 25 years out of the fear of being judged for being different. Then everything changed. He won the inspirational speaker of the year, delivered three Tedx talks and performed stand-up comedy in three continents and four languages. Joze has delivered keynotes at Google, Tesla, Dell, IBM, as well as educational institutes and conferences. With more than three million views on Goalcast Joze has also been featured on Tedx, ABC, Forbes, Now This, and CBC.
I can’t wait to chat with him. Here we go.
So Jose I’m so happy to be talking with you today, um, welcome.
Joze: Thank you Paul. It’s really good great to be here, and for the benefit of your listeners, or viewers,
I’ll
I’ll just mention that I have a s stutter. Everyone’s internet is working just fine. [smiles broadly]
[Paul laughes]
Paul: Yes! Yes that’s a beautiful segue into my first question for you Joze. Which is, when did you realize that you wanted to do stand-up comedy?
Joze: Even though I’ve always loved to stand up as a fan it wasn’t
it wasn’t until recently that I decided to to embark on the journey of being a
comedian myself. I believe what enabled this unexpected development was the insight that when I introduced myself to people and casually mentioned the stuttering through a joke, not only did I relax, but the people with whom I was speaking could
could also relax more now that they understood why I
I sound the way that I sound and this allowed for more effective connections with others. So I intuitively had picked up on the fact that comedy can act as a social lubricant for me to address the stuttering in a way that broke the ice, and then years later I was in a position where I
I
I could get into su
stand up.
Paul: Excellent. Okay that makes a lot of sense. And you pull a lot of, because I’ve heard you speak, I actually first heard you speak during Creative Mornings not too many weeks ago, and I’ve looked up some of your stand up. I did. I laughed pretty hard. I should just mention to you as well, a lot of people that listen to my podcast are actors, performers, directors, casting directors. I think that there’s something interesting, I was chatting with a casting director from Atlanta, Georgia a couple of weeks ago and she actually chose to do stand-up as well. She chose to do it because it was something that made her scared. I can’t think, Jose, of anything that would be more scary than standing up and trying to make people laugh. So do you, as far as… this is a really wandering question, and I’m thinking out loud, when you’re thinking of material and things like that, do you mostly pull from your own experiences or do you riff on them? I’m just curious.
Joze: A lot of of my material has come from my experience as a person who stutters and in that sense my standup has had a very therapeutic role for me. As far as self-acceptance and self-love or are concerned I can think of several instances where I
I might have been going through a difficult period and then the minute I’m back up on stage and I address my stutter through comedy something shifts and it goes from being perceived as an obstacle by myself two to this circumstance that I am now more in control of. And yeah that’s really the
the power of comedy from a
from an individual standpoint. Of course the the goal of stand up is also to create laughter and
and enjoyable and entertaining moments and this is where the craft of comedy comes in
in terms of actually writing material and then repeatedly testing it to gauge audience reaction and such.
Paul Cram: Absolutely. I personally have not stood up on a comedy stage. I’ve done a lot of comedic roles in films, but they always give me what you need to do and you stand there and say this. So what I find fascinating and interesting is you’re kind of touching on the therapeutic aspect of that, from your life. You mentioned that it was intuitive, but I’m curious, I wrote some of these down,
[shuffles through notecards]
and I’m realizing I can write really long questions. Was there someone specific in your life that helped turn that key for you in your head that opened like that door and helped you walk through? Kind of the possibilities that you maybe thought that you didn’t have access to, and if there was someone who was it?
Joze: Yeah. So one of the key steps I took early on in my journey was having joined Toastmasters for ah yes public speaking and at the time that fear was so devastating for me that in my s
second year of undergrad I begged my professors to exempt me from all of my presentations because the
the thought of having to stay in front of a room of people and so
stutter made me feel so uncomfortable. So small]. That I opted for avoidance as a defense mechanism and having heard of Toastmasters i
it seemed like something I
I had to do to overcome this
this fear that was really preventing me from expressing myself both in
in public and
and in more in less public settings. After
after joining toastmasters and repeatedly exposing myself to the the s
stimulus of public speaking I was gaining more confidence. And then if we combine a few years of of Toastmasters with that insight that joking about my stutter was an effective approach, if you combine those two two things with the fact that I had heard about this stand up comedy event I
I was able to
to
to take that step and and get into comedy.
Paul Cram: It’s wonderful you keep setting me up for all these, because I was gonna ask you if someone wanted to follow in some of your creative footsteps what your advice would be, but you kind of, sort of, answered that a smidge already. Pushing yourself. Toastmasters sounds like a really good way to begin that, if I’m not mistaken. So did your professor just tell you “no, you have to do this!” or was it like they were very accommodating they said sure no problem?
Joze: So I
I ended up doing this additional homework in lieu of ever having to speak in class and of course interestingly it’s
it’s a
of course it’s a bit bittersweet. On the one hand we we have to appreciate the flexibility and the understanding. While at the same time realizing that what would have helped
what would have helped me more in
in those situations might have been the professors asking a few follow-up questions about “wait, so what is it about about this that you find really uncomfortable?
Paul: Right. right
Joze: and if in other words if we are avoiding something out of the fear of judgment then we are allowing that fear to control our life and that leads to essentially our destiny and our possibilities shrinking as a result of allowing these
these moments to be controlled.
It’s not easy to get out there because we have to face that fear of rejection… and if we are sensitive it’s very easy to engage in these cognitive distortions wherein we end up internalizing the negative events. We end up personalizing them as we start inferring negative things about ourselves based on external events.
Joze Piranian, International Public Speaker
Paul: Yeah. I am always bringing it back to acting, because I’m an actor. It reminds me so much of, there’s a lot myself included, but there’s a lot of actors when I’m chatting with them, I’ll tell them they should go and audition for that lead part and they’re like “oh gosh I could never do that!” And I’m like Why not? You’re an actor, how is this any different than what you’re already doing? And they’ll say how they’ve never really been on an audition. Wait. What? Literally there’s been people that I tell me “I’m an actor” and I’m wonder to myself if you’ve never been to an audition… and I’m like what do you do for work? And they’re like well I wait tables as a server. But you’ve never been to an audition? How can you call yourself an actor? Go do it! Go do it! But they don’t, they’re scared. Which is, I don’t mean to sound so judgmental, but like get out there. Get out there.
Joze: It’s not easy to get out there because we have to face that fear of rejection, that fear of judgment, and if we are sensitive it’s very easy to engage in these cognitive dis
distortions wherein we end up internalizing the negative events. We end up personalizing them as we
we start inferring negative things about ourselves based on external events when
when i think about this this journey one thing I
I often realize is that everyone has a stutter. Everyone has this inner stutter. For someone it could be the fear of failure. For someone it could be the fear of judgment, the fear of rejection, the fear of success. And the
Paul: ooh yeah
Joze: Yeah, and the best way out of those stutters is always through them. There’s just no other way.
Paul: When you say that everyone has a stutter, I think about that and I’m just like “ouch!” How did you how did you, like when I’m saying about like actors like get yourself out there, I don’t mean to sound flip about it. I understand it’s hard. Specifically for you it sounds like there’s a drive. If your professors weren’t telling you you must go out and do this, for you specifically, I’m so curious, where does that drive come from? Is it just a drive to succeed? Is it a drive to… what is pushing you to succeed specifically? With considering that you have a stutter, what pushed you? What? What inspired you? What was the impetus for that? I’m maybe kind of repeating a question, but I’m just curious if there is an answer to that?
Joze: I have a two-part answer. On the one hand when I’m asked about what was the turning point, I’m to me that question is based on a romanticized notion of change. Heavily influenced by Hollywood.
Paul: yeah absolutely.
Joze: Need for transformation is that singular breakthrough moment when something just clicks as we go running under the rain, Katy Perry’s fireworks in the background. yes I
I have not found that to be the case for me. Change occurred through what I call millions of of micro moments of bravery. During which I repeatedly did what I did not want to do. Again and again and again. Until it became clear to me that fear and action could co-exist. And once I would enter these uncomfortable situations with that mindset I no longer interpreted fear or discomfort as an indication of inaction. I started interpreting those same physiological reactions as an invitation for action, so that’s the first part of of the of the question in terms of of how to actually start doing those
those things we find uncomfortable whether it is an audition or or talking to someone new or yeah some mindset shifts can assist with that process I’ll only share one of them now which which I find quite effective when I’m at the comedy club before I’m about to go up on stage. Sometimes I’ll look at the stage. I’ll look at the audience and I think “oh my God, I’m about to go up there” and it helps to remember that “hey I’m on on this rock in the middle of the universe in a galaxy so statistically while this moment might feel meaningful to me, it is irrelevant in the or ins
insignificant rather in the grand scheme of things and sometimes injecting this
this hinge of cosmic absurdity allows me to perceive that
that situation that
that moments ago was inducing stress or anxiety or fear it
it turns those emotions into laughter and an excitement.
Paul: I love your two-part answer Joze! It really resonates for me. It reminds me of something a casting director mentioned to me once, she’s like “you’re gonna have some bad auditions Paul and that doesn’t define you. It’s the the overall journey.” So it’s a very good answer. And i agree with you on the front too. I love some romantic Hollywood. You know “Katy Perry” dancing with the fireworks. It’s not always that. I want to move on actually to this question. Is there a misconception that people have about speech impediments that if you could just snap your fingers and people would understand what is it?
Joze: Yeah. So when President
when President Biden was running for the elections last year I think it was, or two years ago I recall having seen so many comments on social media from people misinterpreting his stutter as a as a severe lack of
of coherence or yeah or
or competence and regardless of how one feels about the politics i’m
i’m not American so it wouldn’t even be this
this
this topic of
of this question for me re
regardless of of that whole angle I recall realizing that stuttering remains a somewhat mysterious condition that
that oftentimes gets misinterpreted for a lack of confidence for
for nervousness for social anxiety for a lack of competence and while
and while social anxiety is definitely a common repercussion of having to deal with a stutter because it leads to that fear of judgment for
for being different the basis of having a
a stutter is physical it’s
it’s not psychological right. It’s not mental. So I would say that is
that is one of those those things. Yeah. That’s it.
Paul: I’m glad that you mentioned that. It’s bringing back a lot of stuff because I am American and there was so much surrounding that specific moment in time with Biden and what he was doing. Yeah that’s really interesting. Can I ask, you said that you’re not American, are you, I’m gonna guess here, are you Canadian? [Joze nods “yes”]
You are. Wonderful. Another question for you
Joze: I’m Canadian. I was born and raised in Lebanon and my family is Armenian so
so it’s a
it’s a combination. But i’m based in Toronto Canada.
Paul: Very cool. I come from a huge, what i consider a huge family, is your family fairly big as well? Or small? or?
Joze: Not really I
I have a sister who’s
who’s based in the UK. In London.
Paul: Oh nice. Very nice.
Joze: How many siblings do you have Paul?
Paul: I am one of nine.
Joze: Whoa!
Paul: Yeah. So I have three fun questions that I want to ask you Joze. But they’re kind of light and fun, so I usually say them right before the end. So is there anything that you want to maybe share or say before I ask you these kind of zany questions?
Joze: One thing I’ll mention is the the role that the meditation has
has played in my journey. I do
I do meditate every day and I can’t recommend it enough for anyone looking to
to
to learn emotional regulation better.
Paul: That’s awesome. I’ve heard a lot about meditation, I haven’t actually necessarily done it. I just read The Untethered Soul have you ever read that book by chance?
Joze: Yes. Michael, um
Paul: oh my gosh yes yes yes
Joze: I
I
I had to read it maybe a year ago or so I really liked it.
Paul: Yeah. Me as well. All right so drum roll or something like that.
[Joze makes a drumming sound with his hands]
Paul: You might have to correct me on this question. Number one. Your favorite Lebanese food dish? Would we say Lebanese or would we say Armenian? Are they the same or different?
Joze: Yeah I know they are different. But I’m definitely way more familiar with Lebanese cuisines. Seeing that actually I’ll give you one of each. I’ll give you one Lebanese.
Paul: Do it.
Joze: What Armenian is my favorite and my
my favorite Lebanese food it’s gonna be really cliche. I am going to say hummus. I love it and I know it is it’s very popular. But there’s a reason why it is this popular. I also love tabbouleh salad. And then in terms of Armenian food there’s this really
really tasty dish called Eech. Which I really like
Paul: Eech. Ookay i’m gonna have to look it up. Question number two. What weapon would you choose in the Zombie Apocalypse if there was one?
Joze: Assuming this would be a
a localized zombie apocalypse. My opinion of shorts would be a
a plane. And go elsewhere.
Paul: Very smart. Third question. What song do you hate because it’s catchy and if you sing it it gets stuck in your head for the rest of the day?
Joze: I’ve never liked the song Happy and I
and I get it, I get the appeal but for some reason I’m just not a huge fan of that song.
Paul: {Sarcastic} You don’t want to raise your hands like it’s the, I don’t remember how the lyrics go but yeah. That seems to be a really popular song at weddings.
Joze: Yes
Paul: This has been fun i really appreciate you taking the time Joze. And for sharing your insights and some of your creative journey.
Joze: And I thank you Paul for having me. It’s been really interesting to discuss the nuances and intricacies as well as the links between my journey and the journey of
of
of an actor who has to to deal with that fear of rejection if they want to fulfill their potential both professionally and personally so I’m happy we had this conversation today.
Paul: Fantastic, and I believe you have a quote that we can end on by Robert Frost, which is, correct me if I’m wrong, is it um, actually help me out here Joze because I think I’m going to flip the two. I’m gonna flip the beauty.
Joze: There are three different quotes that have
have had a huge impact on me. The first one is by Robert Frost. “The way out is through.”
Paul: Thank you! There it is.
Joze: Yes. The next one is
is
is by Marcus Aurelius and it goes “The impediment to action advances action. what stands in the way becomes the way.” And the last one…
Paul: That’s interesting. Yeah one of the stoics. That’s very interesting.
Joze: Yes exactly. and
and the last one to conclude is one by the Sufi poet Rumi and it goes “Why do you stay in prison when the door is so wide open?”
Paul: Thank you Joze. That was a really good conversation to have. I appreciate your insights and for sharing your experiences. For anyone that’s listening, reach out to Joze and let him know that you listened and share some of your thoughts with him. You can find him on instagram at YesWayJoze. Joze is j-o-z-e. So YesWayJoZe. You can find him on instagram. You can find him on Facebook. You can also find him on the web actually it’s just www.JozePiranian.com
And if anybody has any questions or is interested to find out more about me you can find me at iamPaulCram.com. Thanks everybody. Let’s keep being kind to each other.
