Talk with Twin Cities On-Camera SAG-AFTRA Talent Agent Carol McCormick | Quick Career Retrospective

Carol peels back the curtain and let’s us peer into her life as a talent agent. It’s full of some wacky and fun experiences as well as some sage lessons on negotiating.

Learn more about Moore Talent online at MooreTalent.com

Transcript

Paul Cram: I’m Paul Cram. Joined today by Carol McCormick. She actually has been my on-camera talent agent for ages.

Carol McCormick: I didn’t know what the job was I kind of knew I was gonna have to work with fashion models, which quite frankly did not appeal to me. It was not my thing. I didn’t think it was going to be my thing, but I stayed the course for for six months and then the on-camera print agent took a different job and I got her job. So then I got my dream job. Which was to work with actors.

Paul: She recently retired and her and I have a conversation talking about her work as an agent, getting started, and some of the tips and insights that she has to offer actors. As well as just some fun zany stories. Here we go.

Carol: I actually remember your first headshot.

Paul: You do?

Carol: I do.

Paul: That’s awesome. I’m trying to think, yeah, I think I remember it too actually.

Carol: You were so young. But you just had this quirky appeal and you know we had to meet you.

Paul: I’ve always appreciated, specifically with you, Carol, and you know with obviously I love Moore Creative. I’ve always appreciated that. I’ve always felt like, I’m like “oh they kind of get me.” Which is because I am a little bit of this charactery quirky guy. I always loved the phone calls from you by the way. Where it’s like “well Paul, I’ve got another oddball gig” or “wait till you hear this description Paul.”

Carol: Can you get into a costume?

Paul: Yes!

Carol: You’re going to be an owl.

I learned that if you really want to have negotiating power you have to be able to say “no” and walk away from a job.

-Carol McCormick, On-Camera SAG-AFTRA Talent Agent

Paul: And you were right. For anybody listening, I did this one gig. Oh, and you were spot on too Carol. Which i think shows kind of your instinct as a as an agent. I remember when you called me for that gig. You were like “you know what Paul? This is a mascot thing, you’re going to be in this owl costume.” And I just remember you telling me, if you’re interested in this Paul, i think it’s going to be something that’s going to last for a while. Like it’s probably going to be a good source of income. And it was. You were spot on. Year after year for a while. Yep, we’re still going to do this. Yep we’re still going to. So i always appreciated that. Carol was right.

Carol: I was right about that. You know. We were going into a slow period in the industry where i think even a job like that was was important.

Paul: Yeah, oh for me it was great. For me it was absolutely great. So I am just happy to be chatting with you Carol. I’m so curious, how did you get started as an agent? How did that even look like for you specifically?

Carol: I am well-prepared to answer that question. I graduated from Gustavus Adolphus with a major in psychology and a minor in theater. I didn’t want to pursue anything in theater. I think I mentioned to you that I had terrible stage fright, so I didn’t see how I was going to get beyond. So I was just in my early 20s working one odd job after another when a friend of mine who worked for Joe Gianetti, a very famous photographer of the time. And she was the studio manager, and she told me enough about that job to make me think I could do something like that. And she said Carol there’s an opening at the Eleanor Moore Agency and it’s in their print division and i think you’d be good at it. And I trusted my friend a lot. I didn’t know what it was to be a print agent but I just walked into Eleanor Moore and said I hear there’s an opening and I’d like to apply. I filled out the usual form that you did back then, and the next day I got a call, went in and met Eleanor Moore herself and she hired me immediately, and i started the next day. And I remember sort of being embarrassed. Because i didn’t know what the job was. I knew i was gonna have to work with fashion models which quite frankly did not appeal to me. It was like not my thing. I didn’t think it was going to be my thing. But I stayed the course for for six months and then the on-camera print agent took a different job and I got her job. So then I got my dream job. Which was to work with actors.

Paul: Which, you mentioned you had stage fright a little bit?

Carol: Yeah.

Paul: You had a minor in theater too. So that’s that’s kind of an interesting thing. I mean, I guess if you’re going to discover if you have stage fright that’s the way to do it.

Carol: Yeah. But you know the psychology aspect, working with actors. It became very important. I used my my knowledge of human behavior a lot over the years. I should open up a shingle and just do counseling for actors.

Paul: I specifically remember calling you on the phone every now and then to vent. I’m sure that most actors do that though. We are, well we can be, I’m going to just use the term “needy.” Where it’s like “Oh my gosh! And like Carol, this happened! Oh my gosh!”

Carol: Yeah, I’ve had talk a few actors off the proverbial ledge a few times. When they’ve been, you know really depressed and upset.

Paul: That makes sense. How was that time specifically working with the the fashion models?

Carol: Oh my goodness. This one funny story i just thought of. This beautiful, tall, willowy red-headed woman, I even remember her name but I won’t say it, I’d been there about oh six weeks maybe and she came into the agency and she leaned over my desk and she whispered in my ear “Carol, I don’t care what the others are saying about you I think you’re lovely.” It’s like you know, that backhanded compliment. You know and I have thought of what the others are saying about you and how is that welcoming?

Paul: Oh my gosh [laughs] so oh Carol oh Carol okay. I love that so much I love that because I feel like I’ve experienced that. Who hasn’t experienced some of that kind of passive like…

Carol: Passive aggressiveness.

Paul: Yeah.

Carol: Mm-hmm. Yep so anyways i was glad to leave the models behind.

Paul: That’s kind of a wonderful story. That’s terrible actually. That’s so terrible. Which it leads me to this next question that I have for you. What’s one of the most challenging or wacky experiences during your time as an agent, counting the one you just shared — that was pretty funny!

I did have to say to a Disney executive “No. He’s not doing it for that amount of money.” and then the phone call ended. And we all just sat there with gloomy silence through the rest of that day. And then the next day I got a phone call and they doubled the money.

-Carol McCormick, On-Camera SAG-AFTRA Talent Agent

Carol: Well I’ve got a pretty good challenging story which might surprise some people and I learned a lot from it. I was still kind of a newbie. Because really you gotta you gotta be in this job for minimum two years before you know what you’re doing. And I was probably in, you know, the two-year period. We were representing a really talented young man whose name I will say, Charlie Korsmo. He was like eight years old going on 25. You know, one of those kids right?

Paul: Right.

Carol: Yeah. So smart and talking way above my head and he was amazing. And then we got a casting call from from Disney and they were reaching out to agents all over the country to find a boy to play the kid in Dick Tracy with Warren Beatte and Madonna. And out of all the kids that they looked at in the United States they liked Charlie the best and they wanted to hire him for the job. So that is an incredible break. Things like that just don’t happen every day. Now here’s what was challenging about it: the money. The money was shockingly low. Even as a new agent I knew it was low.

Paul: Even with Madonna though? like because…

Carol: Exactly! Even with someone that big-budget they were not paying the actors anything, and they told me that even Madonna was making the same amount of money as Charlie. They call it “favored nations” and I quite frankly didn’t believe them. But i had to talk to a couple different Disney executives and also talk to the to the parents of Charlie and really have to come to an understanding. That if this wasn’t enough money and they wanted to walk away from it, I was okay with that. That I was okay with turning down the job. Which would have crushed something in my heart but I would have done so. In fact I did have to do that. I did have to say to a Disney executive “No. He’s not doing it for that amount of money.” and then the phone call ended. And we just all you know sat there in a sort of gloomy silence through the rest of that day. And then the next day I got a phone call and they doubled the money.

Paul: I have to say cheers to you Carol.

Carol: But I learned. I learned that if you really want to have negotiating power you have to be able to say “no” and walk away from a job.

Paul: Oh my gosh. As an actor,l my anxiety level I’m feeling when you say that!

Carol: But really it hasn’t happened that much in my whole career. Usually you find a compromise, you find something that’s a win-win. But you know, sometimes occasionally you don’t and then I have to make sure that the actors is on board. Because if the actor still really wants the job, no matter what the paycheck is, I am obligated to say “yes.” So it’s a tricky thing to navigate. But that was an early experience I had that was like “Oh my God! I’m talking to the people. I’m talking to some high-level executives.”

Paul: There’s something about that. There’s something about that too where for me I’m just like “but it’s Madonna and Warren Beatte!” and like like… It’s so interesting because it would be so hard to say “no.” It would. It would just be really really hard. There’s a huge “but” that I’m gonna say in that though too. Because Carol, like you and I, I remember specifically having conversations about money and rates that I would be willing to accept. I can attest to what you’re talking about, Because I remember there was there was conversations. A lot. I work a ton as a character guy in indie projects, and very low budget projects a lot of the time, or just weird budgets. I remember many times you calling and being like “Well here’s here’s kind of where we’re at, are you willing to work for this rate?” and I do remember, I think, more in the more recent years being like “let’s let’s try to get a little more.” You know what i mean? Because at some point I can’t work for such a low rate. But that’s really funny Carol. That. So he wound up doing the movie, right?

Carol: He did. He did. And he went on to do several other wonderful movies, and then he quit acting when he was about 14 or 15. Getting into that awkward teenage year. And now I understand that he wants to direct and produce indie films himself. Even though he did go on to get a law degree at Harvard.

“What is a regret that’s a little-bit personal?” One is that I worked tremendously hard at Eleanor Moore and Moore Creative when my kids were little, and I didn’t get to see soccer games and I didn’t get to see ski-racing and I missed some things that were really important. And while I don’t think my children resent me for it, they’ve never brought it up, but still it happened.

-Carol McCormick, On-Camera SAG-AFTRA Talent Agent

Paul: That’s kind of amazing. It’s kind of amazing. So is there anything during your tenure or time as an agent that sticks out as like a big regret?

Carol: Oh a big regret? You know I’ve thought about that and I think “what is a regret that’s a little-bit personal?” One is that I worked tremendously hard at Eleanor Moore and Moore Creative when my kids were little, and I didn’t get to see soccer games and I didn’t get to see ski-racing and I missed some some things that were really important. And I don’t think my children resent me for it, they’ve never brought it up, yet it still happened. The holidays are here, but um, that’s the only regret I have. But for the people that I met over the years, and the enriching relationships, and the stories I’ve heard, and having all these fantastic creative people let me into their lives, you know unbelievable riches riches riches. Yeah. But marry well. Marry well. If you’re going to be an agent because you don’t make much money, but you get these amazing experiences.

Paul: That’s a really good. Honest. I appreciate you sharing that too. Just about your experiences with that work-life balance piece. I know that you know this, but even for actors [sound of dog scratching a table] and um [dog barks] awww, I hear a puppy, right?

Carol: My puppy yes. Yes, just climbed on the table in the room. You know “I’m gonna get up there!”

Paul: I love it. But yeah just that work life-balance. I think that there’s a lot of people, not just actors, oh my gosh, I mean- actors, directors, everyone. I worked with casting directors, back in the day, like sometimes the hours are just nuts. So i appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, I don’t have an answer and all to work-life balance issues really.

Carol: But you know, I did work out a balance. It didn’t happen at the right time in my life, but it did happen. I finally negotiated a four-day a week. So for a big chunk of my career I had Fridays off. Did you know I was out of the office on Fridays Paul?

Paul: I did. I did, because I remember; I specifically remember Carol calling in, and being like I need to talk to Carol, and they’re like “oh She’s not here, can we help you?” And i was like “well, can you?!” So I do remember that and i think that that’s really cool that you found a way to make that work for you and your life. That’s awesome.

Carol: That saved me. That’s why i could stay in the business for so long, because I had that little, you know, safety net.

Paul: Yeah. I’m gonna move on to another question for you. Who and what do you miss most um from your time as an agent now?

Carol: Well I miss that second family that I had with people I worked with. We really became close. I mean you know, a few little spats now and then, but for the most part there was hardly a time when I didn’t walk into that office and go “here I am in my happy place.” So those people are really important to me, all of them.

Paul: Yeah? Oh that’s lovely, that’s so lovely. Were there ever any agents over the years that you didn’t get along with and can you name names and show us pictures?!

Carol: Yes, I have their photos right here! [laughs] Actually though, you know, being an agent is a hard job. It’s a burnout job. So I did sit across from people that came and went. I would say the average amount of time an agent can, you know, stand it, is about five years. So in five years most of them became close friends. I just had dinner with one last week. I went up to somebody else’s cabin. I meet somebody for coffee next week. So you know they have become close friends. But there were some that they just didn’t care enough I guess. Maybe I was the one who set the bar kind of high. Even though I was constantly late in the morning, other than that, I was very conscientious. I would stay late if i needed to, and other people would just walk out the door at 5 30. They didn’t care. And I’m like “but… but… but we still have to get one more actor for 10 o’clock in the morning you can’t leave!” But they did.

Paul: Umm. I would have to assume that went really far with your interactions with the casting directors in town. I’d have to assume making sure they had talent’s time slots filled?

Carol: Oh right. Yeah. They knew that they could count on me to pull through on the harder jobs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know, I’ve been bragging too much.

Paul: No no no no no. Oh my gosh Carol! You are my guest on this podcast. You brag and you share anything. I want to say too that I so appreciate the input and kindness and care that you always gave me, so you are welcome to share and brag and i’m asking you to do so. Please do. We are so Minnesotan too. I think sometimes we’re like “Oh i don’t want to brag.” No! You you were an agent for a very long time and you have a wealth of knowledge. So i appreciate you sharing it and kind of peeling the curtain back a little bit and showing us a little bit about what that life was like. So brag away.

Carol: Yeah. Should i tell you about the wackiest job I worked on?

Paul: yes please.

Carol: It took two months of my time. We’re stacked with contracts and papers and notes and emails. It was when Blue Cross Blue Shield decided to do a living experiment out at Mall of America and they built a plexi glass apartment. Completely clear walls except for the bathroom, and they wanted to find an actor who was gregarious and funny and overweight…

Paul: Ahh, I fit so many of those descriptors but not the overweight one.

Carol: We found one. Through a casting director. We set it up on a casting, but our actor won and he had to move in to this plexiglass apartment and live his life at the Mall of America for a month. And it took the month before that to get everything organized and figure out how he was going to get paid and what his expectations were and I mean he was married and you know he wasn’t sure he should be you know leaving his newlywed wife for that long. But you know, so negotiating money on that was tricky. Yeah and it happened. He lived in this apartment in front of everyone at the Mall of America. And he had to go on a special diet, have special physical exams, that was in private.

Paul: Right right. I was going to ask that’s like how did they deal with nudity?

Carol: Like occasionally they would let him pull a curtain. And the bathroom was private, but for everything else that he did, he did in front of whoever was walking by at Mall of America. And he lost weight, he lost a lot of weight, interesting blood pressure went down and his cholesterol went down and that was the experiment.

Paul: That’s wacky and wild. I’m just imagining you on the phone call for that where you’re like here’s what I need you to do.

Carol: I know! The phone call from the casting director was like “what? they’re going to do… did i hear that right?”

Paul: It’s a very science-y kind of a thing. I like it. But i’m also like “huh?”

Carol: I know. We took a field trip out to the Mall of America. Everyone did it from Moore Creative. [dogs barking] Ooh!

Paul: Yeah that’s fine.

Carol: The dogs are alive.

Paul: i love it. Do you have a most embarrassing moment in your career that you can think of where you were just like “oh. my. gosh.”?

Carol: Yeah. Any time I made a mistake was embarrassing. Humiliating. Shameful. Beat myself up. And when you’re dealing with so many projects and so many actors and so many phone calls and so many emails you are going to make mistakes. But I learned from them. Yeah, you know probably one of my first newbie mistakes – oh this is terrible – I was working with 3M on an industrial film, and they were staging kind of a fake trial and i had to cast an attorney. A lawyer. And I sent actors out to 3M and they picked one of them. And somehow i got the dates wrong as to when they needed him. And when the day before they were going to shoot I was trying to get the script to the actor and I found out that he was in Wisconsin in rehearsal for a play and he couldn’t possibly do the job. And so I had to find a substitute actor, and I didn’t know enough to realize I couldn’t make that decision myself. I went ahead and made the decision myself and I sent an entirely different actor to the job the next day. I didn’t have the producer’s telephone number and can you imagine how shocked they were?

Paul: I can imagine how shocked they were. But honestly Carol there’s a part of me that’s like “well ,okay you took the bull-by-the-horns.”

Carol: And you know, I don’t know, it was about a year before they called us again. That was a terrible mistake. You know I should never have thought I had the power to make a substitute like that.

Paul: What did they say? I’m just curious. Did they call and were they irate or what?

Carol: Yeah they called. They said “okay, what the hell is going on? What are you doing? This isn’t the actor we chose!” I had to explain my reasoning. I said “well it was either that or you’d have no one at all. So i thought i thought would be better if i put in the substitute.” Oh that was a terrible mistake.

Paul: I would have to imagine that a producer or director would’ve said to the actor “Yeah, who are you?” and the actor being like “i=I’m here for the job.” and the director saying “who are you?” Yeah that’s really funny. I mean it’s funny but it’s not. It sounds like you’re really being hard on yourself. Which is very familiar to me. That you’re sort of being hard on yourself. I think that is a Midwestern trait, I think I’ve heard. Where it’s kind of like “oh i didn’t quite do the job well” and on one hand i think that’s good, but on the other hand it’s not good. So if someone wanted a career like yours, if someone wanted to become an agent similar to you, what kind of advice would you give them? Maybe something that you wish that you knew when you were starting out. You’ve mentioned some really good things, I’m just curious is there something specific?

Carol: well you can have a lot of different backgrounds and do this job well, but if you aren’t truly a people person it’s not for you. Because what’s expected of you is to be authentically caring about the talent. And you know judgments put aside, and you know, see the person for who they are and figure out what they’re going to be good at, and how to cast them and and you have to dive pretty deep sometimes to, you know, get to that point with so many different talent. So if you really don’t enjoy that kind of interaction with the human race then don’t. Don’t do it. Also, if you really want to be an actor yourself I think it’s a hard job. And I have seen that happen. An actor who isn’t having great success decides maybe being an agent, you know, would be good. But then they always want to do the job themselves, you know, and you can’t. It’s a conflict of interest.

Actors think that we [agents] can really get them the job. We can’t. The actor has to get the job. All we can do is try to get the actor in the right place at the right time and then it’s out of our hands.

-Carol McCormick, On-Camera SAG-AFTRA Talent Agent

Paul: I have noticed that sometimes too. Yeah, so I think that’s really interesting. That’s really interesting. Good advice. I always try to ask people this question too – If there’s a misconception that you have seen? Like a general misconception that maybe the public has or people have about agents, or even the industry, and if yes, what is it and if you could snap your finger and people would not have that anymore what would that be?

Carol: I think that actors believe that we [agents] have more power than we do. We have some power, you know, a little little pinky full power. But for the most part we are the person in the middle trying to go for the win-win. Trying to keep everyone happy. And I think actors think that we [agents] can really get them the job. We can’t. The actor has to get the job. All we can do is try to get the actor in the right place at the right time and then it’s out of our hands. It’s always a mystery to me why some people consistently book more than others. And I just think that there is this misconception that we have more control over things than we than we do. Most the time we are like the last the last person on the totem pole. You know, we’re just right at the bottom of the feeding frenzy. So once in a while, once in a while you do get to work with somebody that trusts you and you end up almost having control over who they cast, but not often.

Paul: That’s interesting. That’s a very interesting thing that. I would even like from your perspective within that hierarchy of power so-to-speak. I used to have the misconception, I know when I was first starting out, that agents, like you said, had more power; but i also thought that casting directors had way more power than they do. Like I was like “Oh they’re the person casting, they’re the one who picks.” and would you agree? I mean they aren’t necessarily.

Carol: Yeah right. That’s a misconception of casting directors too. That they have more power than agents do. Yeah, they do. They do. Yes. But ultimately, you know, it’s the guy that runs the peanut butter company. You know, I mean, he’s the one who’s got the power right?

Paul: Right. Yeah, in the in the commercial world. And in the film world it’s the… i had a conversation with a casting director the other day and she’s like “you know Paul, in the film world…” or more in the TV world, I guess film and TV, she’s like “it’s not just the director.” She’s like “you have a writer. You have a team of people that are making some of these decisions.” It’s interesting. I don’t know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Carol, this has been really great. I’ve enjoyed chatting with you and talking and I appreciate all that. Is there anything that you’d like to say before we kind of wrap this up? Is there anything that we didn’t touch on specifically? Actually there is one question I know there is one. I’m not quite done. What advice do you have for actors? On agents. Getting an agent or whatever that would look like?

Carol: I was thinking about that question and I hope this doesn’t sound too cliche but a lot of actors sit around and wait for the phone to ring and they get frustrated with their agents because it’s like “what have you done for me lately?” And I guess if I was going to give one piece of advice to an actor it’s to change that attitude and start acting. And start saying to yourself – i had to write this down – um, say to yourself “what have i done for myself lately?” Okay so if your phone isn’t ringing and you feel like your agent isn’t paying any attention to you ask yourself “what have I done for myself? Have I taken an improv class? Have I pushed the boundaries of my skills? Have I been practicing? Have i been staying in touch? You know you have to look at that stuff. And you can’t just you just can’t expect your your agent to do everything. It doesn’t work that way.

Paul: That’s such good advice Carol. And it is simple, but sometimes aren’t the simple things really profound?! I don’t know. It really resonates, and it reminds me of something that my dad used to say. He was like “Paul are you hearing people tell you no” and what he meant by that was “are you pushing yourself? Are you putting yourself out there? Are you trying new things? Are you? Are you knocking on the doors and being like here’s what I am offering, you know, I’m an actor.” And yeah I also feel like the expectation of an actor on an agent – like there’s a reason that Union agents are taking 10 percent and they’re not taking 90 percent of the paycheck. I don’t know. There’s there’s still work to be done so yeah.

Carol: Yeah well you’ve been remarkable, Paul, with your career. Because you don’t let the grass grow very long under your feet. There’s always always something going on in your mind. What can I be doing? Yeah. How can i keep this interesting? How can i keep it fun?

Paul: Yeah, no, I really appreciate that Carol. I try to. I try to. Yeah! Yeah, hence even this. Hence even us chatting and doing doing this podcast and things like that. This is, this is a little new for me. So um yeah, it’s fun. It’s really fun. Do you have any advice or thoughts for seasoned actors? I know that what you shared is so true and good even for a seasoned actor, but for actors that have that are not starting out? Maybe someone like even myself. Are there any tips or advice for someone who’s been in the industry for quite some time? I don’t know, I am just curious.

Carol: Well I just love to see actors who sort of plateaued. You know, and then something happens in their life, where they’ve decided to create their own work, or they’re gonna get their show up at the Fringe Festival. Or they’re going to take, you know, three months and try a new market. You know they’re they’re still exploring. It kind of goes into what i said “what have you done for yourself lately?” But you know, if an actor who’s been in this industry for a long time, and it’s just like getting boring to them, you know, maybe step back. Maybe step back for a few months. Take a break from it. It’s a stressful business. Try something completely different.

Paul: I like that. Yeah, I like that.

Carol: Write poetry if that’s your outlet.

Paul: Your psychology degree is shining through Carol. Would you ever consider coming back and being an agent at Moore if you get bored in retirement?

Carol: Umm. Yes.

Paul: Okay. Easy enough. Cool.

Carol: The Covid stuff changed a lot for me you know. We weren’t meeting actors in person and that bothered me. We weren’t able to, you know, work on castings where we’re taping people anymore, and you know all those covid restrictions started to take the joy out of it for me. And I don’t see that ending anytime soon with what’s going on in the world today. We’re having to ask actors to self tape all the time. The industry changed and my life changed back here. And I had responsibilities. It was 39 and a half years.

Paul: Yeah. So i’m just adding to what you’re saying, but so it sounds like a big part of your longevity as an agent was and is that you are a people person.

Carol: Yes. Yeah. Though, I might get a job at a pet store soon.

Paul: You’re an animal person i can tell that. And that’s wonderful. Well this is this has been fun. I really appreciate your insight Carol and taking the time to to share your kind of knowledge and some of those some of those experiences. And Carol I have to say that regardless of what everybody else says I really do like you. [laughs]

Carol: I knew you were, I knew you were going to end that way, I knew it! [laughs] I should never never have revealed that.

Paul: If anybody’s curious, you actually can learn more about the agency Moore Creative Talent. You just go to http://MooreTalent.com. Moore is m-o-o-r-e mooretalent.com. You can actually go there and hire me. Wink-wink Nod nod. If you’d like, additionally you can find out more information about myself and some of the projects and lots of other things on my website which is http://iamPaulCram.com. Thanks everybody. I hope that we all keep continuing to be kind to each other.