Book-Club-Style Talk with Keith Russell | The Year of Living Biblically by AJ Jacobs

Learn more about http://AJJacobs.com
Learn more about Keith Russell http://lifeinrevue.blogspot.com/
Watch Paul’s films http://iamPaulCram.com

Enjoy this episode? Listen to Paul’s conversation with author AJ Jacobs.

Transcription

Paul Cram: This is really fun. I do want to kind of set this up a little bit for anyone that’s watching. I know that if anybody watching has followed some of my podcast episodes, or some of the things that I have going on as an actor and performer, it’s inevitable that they’re going to smash into me talking about books. That’s just a big a big part of my hobbies and interests. And Keith, I just want people to know that you and I are in the Twin Cities. We’re both actors.

Keith Russell: Yes.

Paul: I feel like your name, Keith Russell, that I’ve heard it. I think we probably have mutual acquaintances.

Keith: Oh I’m sure we do. Yeah, it’s a small community here, and so even though I haven’t worked with you, or even if I haven’t seen you, we know people in common because that’s the type of community it is. Which is what I love about the Twin Cities.

Paul: Yeah. It’s interesting because even I always say even though the Twin Cities is small, that I’ve noticed that even in other markets. When I’ve done some stuff in Los Angeles. I’m like “Oh this is really familiar.” Everybody knows everybody. Similar to what you just said. It’s fun. It’s super fun. But why I’m mentioning all of that for everybody is that you and I have not physically or virtually ever met before in this context. I put out a thing the other day, saying here’s some books I’m reading and I’d love to have a a virtual book chat, sort of a book-club-style chat. I loved that you reached out and said that you were game. There’s something to that, that I so admire and love. So welcome, and thank you. Do you want to mention what book we’re going to chat about today?

Keith: I do. And just as a quick sidebar, I do burlesque, as you know and some people also know may know by looking at me that I do burlesque. My tagline for my burlesque character is up for anything and always eager to say yes

Paul: Yes? That’s a dangerous phrase! [joking]

Keith: It’s one of those lines sort of like “hey, I’m game for anything, I may say no, but I want to say yes.” I try and live that in life as well, so you know I saw your post and I’m like, sure why not? I’ve never done anything like this I haven’t read the book but I’m really curious. The book’s been on my list. Let’s do this. We are talking about is “The Year of Living Biblically” by AJ Jacobs. It’s been on my list. When i first heard about it I kind of mentally checked it off. That’s a book I want to read at some point. I never got around to it so once you posted it, I was like “Oh yeah.” I now have a reason to do it.

Paul: I hear what you’re saying.

Keith: Oh nice, you have the hardcover.

Paul: Yes. I have it. When i saw it I was very curious, and I think a lot of people have been. I had posted something on Facebook about it, or some social media about the book and I got a few comments from people such as “Oh, I read that it was really good” it was interesting. I think that was actually before I had read it too, so it was it was one of those things that kind of spurred it on. But I am curious Keith if we both can just kind of give our opinions? How would you describe this book to someone? And then, what did you think? Like give it a star review, one to five.

Keith: So I just posted on Goodreads yesterday, once I finished it because that’s my my platform at the moment. Five stars. I think when you approach a subject like this there’s a fear of it getting really detailed, or too literate too. I like a book that’s an easy read when it’s talking about a difficult subject.

Paul: Yeah. I would definitely agree with that.

Keith: I have a lot of books on music. I love music and theater, but there are some books that are just, you know, going note by note and breaking down what this note means and why it’s this chord. The specific chord. That’s interesting and i find it’s fascinating, but it takes me longer to read the book because of that. This is not that case. I found it really easy, really readable. I appreciate it.

Paul: Yeah, totally echo that. You gave it a five star review, that’s fantastic.

Keith: I’m also easy with my reviews.

Paul: Yeah? That’s kind of what it comes down to for me. Right now I’m actually in that space where I haven’t quite done enough book reviews to know quite where my star ratings are at. If that makes sense?

Keith: Yeah.

Paul: You mentioned Goodreads and stuff. I’m very familiar with Goodreads. I’ve read a ton of reviews on there, but I haven’t ever written one per se. So I’m in that space where I’m wondering what do my star ratings mean?
So before I give my star rating, I would say that I too really found the book to be easy to read, which isn’t totally shocking or surprising I suppose. I did look around a little bit and AJ Jacobs, the author, he writes a lot for Esquire Magazine. I think he actually may by the managing editor at the moment. So he writes a ton of magazine-style stuff. I feel like that style of writing, especially Esquire or something, would be very approachable. So i can sort of see that reflected in this.

Keith: Yeah.

Paul: There are things I want to dive in deeper into too. We will get to those, before I do that though I would have to say that I would give this a solid, I would give it, gosh I’m waffling on a three and a half stars to four stars. I can’t say five because while I really enjoyed it, it wasn’t something that I would say that I love love love this. You know what i mean?

Keith: True yeah.

Paul: I’ll share some reasons why later. We’ll dive into some of that. and i’m giving it a more of a critique. I did really enjoy it and I think I’d be really curious to have somebody read this that is Agnostic or something, because I feel like he came at it from that perspective a little bit. So I’d be curious to hear from that perspective. Keith, here’s a question, do you come from a faith background?

Keith: I do. That was my question. My parents are missionaries and so I grew up. Most of my schooling was in Christian schools. Have I read the whole Bible? No. I’ve not. Was I supposed to at some point in my life? Sure. I certainly was. But no. After having Bible class every year from third grade all the way to my senior year in my school, and then four years in college of Bible. Bible Bible. I got to this point where I needed to take a break. And so I’ve been on a break. But at least with the the faith, that is still there. That’s a whole different subject. But it was. I find it interesting to see. Okay how does somebody else interpret the Bible. What’s another viewpoint? Which is what’s contributed to this as well.

Paul: I love that because I have a very similar upbringing. I almost wonder if it’s like a Midwestern life-experience in a way too. Because i have a very similar experience to yours. You know? I can’t remember a time ever that my parents, where we weren’t attending church. My dad was missionary-esque. He wasn’t a missionary in a permanent setting, but we would take mission trips and stuff. Like through church and things like that. I don’t know if I have ever read the complete Bible. Read the bible from beginning to end. But you would be really hard-pressed to find any part of the Bible that I’ve not heard about.

Keith: Exactly. yes.

Paul: I was very curious to read this from that perspective too because i was like where is this going to go? And actually I was a little bit skeptical at first when he first started the book because I was just like where is he going to go with this? I probably should set this up a little bit. So The Year of Living Biblically, One Man’s Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible when I hear that I chuckle because I know and I’m assuming you did too Keith that living this literally could be really problematic in a lot of ways.

Keith: yes.

Paul: What are some of the ways? I know he covers them in the book too.

Keith: Well first off it comes down to clothing, you know, not wearing matched or mixed fabrics. There’s that right away. There’s the whole diet. Especially if you’re looking at the old testament. You’re looking at the whole dietary laws. You’re looking at laws of not being around or touching women after their period. You know, adultery, things like that. Where in a day-to-day life it’s difficult. There’s a lot you can’t do. It’s a difficult thing, at least I think pre-covenant. Well and even post-covenant.

Paul: Funny.

Keith: Yeah, I say post-pandemic you’re not really touching people either though. So there’s not really that type of concern at least i don’t find myself doing that.

Paul: I’m chuckling just with that a little bit too. He specifically says in here too, and it was one of the parts of the book, that i found funny. Probably one of the most humorous, was the part about not being able to touch his wife when she was menstruating. I belly laughed when he was describing what his wife did. How she was, spoiler alert! We’re gonna talk about a lot of stuff. She was menstruating and apparently, in addition to not being able to touch your wife, it’s to the point where you can’t sit on a chair that she has sat on. And in the book, I just love this so much, she sat in every chair in their apartment. So he couldn’t sit down anywhere. I think he found like a little kid’s chair, or something like that, to sit on. Which i think is funny.

Keith: Yeah. I think he said that he had like bought something online that he could sit and carry with him and always have his seat, in cases like that. Because even on the train on the trains and subways in New York he wouldn’t be able to sit or touch anything. Because you just don’t know who had sat there beforehand.

Paul: And that that raises a really interesting question too. Where is it a sin if you didn’t know i don’t know?

Keith: Here’s what I know from what I’ve heard, at least with the Catholic faith, because I’m not Catholic, but in the Catholic faith if you take communion and you’re not Catholic, it’s a sin. But it’s also sin for the priest to give it to you even if he doesn’t know.

Paul: Interesting. Okay. Huh.

Keith: And I could be off base on that but that’s kind of what I was told through the grapevine. How is it a sin for him?

Paul: It’s interesting. I get that it’ll be a sin for me. It reminds me a little bit of when you if you get pulled over for a speeding ticket in your car or something, and you say something to the officer like Oh officer I didn’t know. And they’re like well not knowing doesn’t mean it’s not breaking the law. It makes it makes me chuckle. I guess for myself Keith and for anyone listening, I personally don’t feel like I was necessarily challenged by anything that he wrote, and that was something i was curious about when I first picked it up. I didn’t know where he was gonna go with this. But after reading it, and the stuff he touched on, it’s very approachable. I didn’t read it and think that this is confronting and challenging my personal faith. I totally still have faith by the way. You do as well. I was chatting with a sister of mine and she seemed extremely skeptical of this book and where it would go. I was like this isn’t even that challenging. He’s exploring. It was interesting.

Keith: I was surprised about it. I assumed before reading it that he was somebody who had no faith background at all and just on whim, and then to find out he actually comes from a Jewish background, but not really firmly believing. I’m like okay well you already have some as a background so you know what this is about, what you’re getting yourself into. I think it’d be really interesting to to have a viewpoint of somebody who has no faith background. And tries to do this journey. I think that would be a completely different story. That might end up being a little bit more confrontational because they don’t have as much, I’m going to use the term belief. Which is not accurate, it’s not the right term, but they don’t have as much going into it. They don’t maybe have as much context within their life to know where these rules are coming from. So there’d be more and therefore it might make them more angry more like “Oh no this is not worth doing.” Whereas reading this I felt, it’s a really interesting challenge, but like you said I didn’t really feel confronted. I didn’t feel like “Oh I’m not doing my life correctly.” None of that. I thought that he’s like what you need to do.

Paul: I agree. Totally. I kind of i think i had that same perspective before I picked it up. I was thinking that is what it was. I did not know that he Jewish, so I really appreciated the fact that he really focused on the the Jewish traditions. The Torah, way way way more than I thought. Again assumptions can be so wrong. Because he’s focused on the Jewish perspective, and on the Torah, and I don’t think that he really dove into the Christian Biblical version or view of the Bible until it almost felt like it was like three-fourths of the way through.

Keith: Yeah. Like the last two months maybe were about the New Testament and Jesus, and that sort of background. Whereas everything before that was definitely Old Testament Torah. You know, Moses’ Levitical laws, all of that. Which makes sense because of his background. I also think that is where you’re going to find most of the laws and the rules, you know if you read the New Testament you don’t really see that that much of that.

Paul: Yep. There was. I appreciate what you’re saying. There’s a explanation, and he did it really well, and i just had not heard it before, or i had never paid attention if somebody had ever said it. But he was talking about the differences between the Old Testament and New Testament, and what Christianity and Christians pull from, from the Old Testament. Gosh, I’m gonna probably kill this, and not do it justice how he actually explained it, but he was saying basically Christians take the moral guidance but they leave the the really strict rules. Like the one’s that say you must not turn on a light. You know those really strict things that are based on there isn’t necessarily potentially a moral piece to it. I just really hadn’t really understood that. I thought we kind of take some, and some we kind of don’t. I really did learn that little tidbit. Would you recommend this to people?

Keith: Oh yeah. Totally. Yeah I would totally recommend it. I actually have a nephew who’s in Bible school right now and I’m thinking it’s gonna be a Christmas gift. It’s gonna end up under the tree for him, because I think he’ll find it really interesting. Just knowing his perspective he may find it really intriguing to see to read this.

Paul: Oh that’s that’s super fun. I wonder, there’s a part of me that’s like– all right, so let me know when he reads it and we all can talk more. I have so many questions and things like. So I’m actually just gonna pick one at random and ask it to you.

Keith: Yeah bring it. Let’s do this.

Paul: Did you find the author’s story compelling?

Keith: I did because it’s such a journey, and I find journey stories to be really interesting. They, for the most part, they start and you want to see where this character ends up. You want to see how his journey is changing, who he is, or if it is changing who he is, or if it’s just a journey. And he’s going to be done and if at the end of it we’re back to my usual life? I find it interesting that after this year, that for the most part he was back to his usual life. Except there were a few changes. He talks about being more grateful. I just finished it yesterday, I don’t even know, I should know this, but I don’t think he really talked about anything that was gonna linger. He said it was a good experience and he learned some things, but he’s also kind of on to his next thing.

Paul: I’m gonna share this too. In that note of asking what did he learn from this experience? Like what habits maybe kind of stuck? This book was written, if I’m not mistaken in 2007. I believe 2007 or 2008, and I was really fortunate because AJ Jacobs, I did an interview with him and it’s coming out next week. So I was able to chat with him and asked him sort of a similar question. I’m not going to answer it here, I’ll let people wait. But it goes along with what you’re saying Keith. Which is, 2008. oh my gosh! I would have to do math and this is super easy too. What was that, like 12 years ago? 13 years ago?

Keith: Um. Sure. No. I’m a theater person. I don’t do math.

Paul: Yeah exactly. I’m like, oh my gosh, I sound really really really smart. [joking]
But you know like having done an experiment like this 12 or 13 years ago, what stuck? What didn’t stick? Because I really got that vibe too, where it was likely something like okay this is just a sort of an experiment. I think I was even wondering about where he was gonna go with this. What is his perspective and is he gonna learn anything?

Keith: Well one thing i thought was interesting, if i can jump in, is?

Paul: Please do.

Keith: The style is very much diary. It’s very much what i did. It’s my experience on this day, as i’m following those. These are the rules I’m following, so there’s kind of that diary aspect to it without much reflection. So it would be really interesting now to to read it again or to have it afterward where he reflects back. That was my journey then, here five years later I’m realizing that these are the things that I still practice on a daily basis or these are. This is a really interesting time that I went through, none of it really applies for my life at this moment, but I’m glad i went through the experience you know be really into, you know, that aspect. Because obviously when you’re doing that for a year you can’t write a book and then be done and be like yep okay I’ve learned everything. And you don’t really have that time frame to look back and experience and go Ah hey I’m still doing this thing. I’m still being grateful every day I’m grateful for the cherry city I’m grateful for this. You don’t really recognize that until later. And I’m sure your interview with him will probably touch base with that.

Paul: I’m only smiling because Keith you’re smart. Ding ding ding! I wasn’t familiar with a lot of his other books at all. This was the first book by him that I ever had read. Maybe a little bit of a teaser to what you’re saying is that he wrote another book, and actually I think it came out a couple years ago, but it was — oh gosh I’m totally gonna forget the the name of it. It’s not The Year Of Gratitude but it’s it’s related to gratitude. You get it right?

Keith: Yeah. I see where this is going

Paul: Yeah, you get it.
[selects a question]
Did you find the book compelling? So I don’t need to even answer this question, because I did find it compelling.

Keith: This one’s fun and I’m also intrigued to read his first book the which one was it because I want to read about going through reading his first book which is all about him reading the encyclopedia a to z, and that sounds really fascinating.

Paul: It sounds like it could be really fascinating or really boring.

Keith: True.

Paul: I’m assuming that it’s probably not boring because i think that he isn’t. He’s pretty fairly engaging as a writer. I have to share this thought, oh my gosh I’m only chuckling because you know when you put things out onto internet?! I have an ex an ex-boyfriend who I kept thinking of when reading this. Keith I was very much reminded of my ex-boyfriend. My ex-boyfriend was Jewish and he was an author of a well-known book, and I’m not gonna say any more than that on that topic other than the fact that I couldn’t get over the fact that I wish I almost didn’t have that sort of a mental connection. Being reminded so much of my ex. The writing style a little bit, and also there was something about the personality that came through that was similar. Like when you said that AJ Jacobs wrote this kind of as a diary and there wasn’t maybe necessarily a lot of reflection within the writing, I really picked up on that because it reminds me of my ex. Who actually was a slight narcissist. I couldn’t get that out of my head. I’m not 100% sure that I like this all. Some of the characters and people that AJ met, I wish there was a little bit more about them.

Keith: Yeah, okay. I see that.

Paul: I understand that it’s titled The Year of Living Biblically and it’s like one man’s humble quest and all, so I mean that’s in the title, so I guess I can’t be too picky. There was just something in it that left me lacking. Some of these other people are wildly interesting and you’re only talking about yourself.

Keith: Yes. But he has a, if i remember correctly, has a pretty good bibliography in the back of the book. Interesting links to the people. Some of the people you talk to…

[Keith looks through his book]

Keith: Um I’m trying, or maybe it’s a it’s not the index, why am I going through the index.

Paul: Here i’m going through the index as well, and I actually did not look at that piece. But there is his index is quite big actually, and he has a big bibliography. Gosh! I have not gone through and and reviewed all of that.

Keith: But what I mean what I appreciated is that he actually, there’s it took me a couple days. I was probably about halfway through when I realized that there’s a note section where I didn’t realize that he was providing notes to some of the things he was talking about. He talks about how on day one or the introduction he talks a little bit more about his preparation, and day two he talks about certain things that he writes about, and then reflects back and says this is where I got this information, here’s a link to this site if you want to dive into more of what this means.

Paul: Where is it?

Keith: The back.

Paul: Oh it is in here.

Keith: Here’s the thing, I would finish a couple couple of chapters, a couple months, because he writes it in that way. Every month is a chapter sort of. I finished chapters and then go to the back with the thought of what am I missing? Is there any information? And found interesting links.

Paul: Cool. I have to say in full transparency, I never ever came across that piece in here. I feel like I’m totally missing out on it. I love that you’re mentioning it. I bounced between the book and the audio book. I listened listen to the a lot of it on the audio book and then would jump in the book, but I don’t believe they touched on the notes at all in the audio version. Which is a weird thing because I would think that in my experience with audiobooks, is they generally do everything. So that’s a little odd to me. I’m not exactly sure Maybe I can go back and read parts of that and I’ll change change my perspective a little bit on him being a narcissistic person like my ex.

Keith: The other thing I found really interesting about this and my history is that he mentions a pastor from the Twin Cities who I actually know and took classes from when I was in in college. Greg Boyd is in this book? Well that’s cool! It’s just one of those weird things. I know this name. I know this guy in person. That’s fascinating that they connected and that I now know a little bit more about Greg’s story because he talks a little bit about what he did.

Paul: Right.

Keith: It’s kind of towards the end when he’s talking about religion and politics and how some of the bigger mega churches have become more political and right versus conservatives and how it’s a thing and you should read the book. Read about it, but he mentions this, he mentions reverend Greg Boyd. I was like I know who that is, which is always a super fun.

Paul: I just finished reading, have you heard of this, this is not about The Year of Living Biblically specifically but have you ever read or heard of Preachers and Sneakers? It’s interesting. It started as an instagram account, and it’s newish to me. I’m not this cool to be up on the very latest instagram accounts. But this instagram account called Preachers and Sneakers, the idea behind it and the gentleman who runs it, he photographs, he will post things about big mega churches or people that are in ministry or in the Christian church– he’ll take pictures of their sneakers and post how much they cost. And it became a really big deal, and it’s become a thing. So he wrote an entire book called Preachers and Sneakers and I just finished it and I really liked it. I enjoyed it a lot. But it kind of touches on that whole concept and that whole idea of mega churches and what they are and questioning their place within Christianity. This book doesn’t touch on that, but what you’re talking about with the mega churches and kind of their purpose and conservatism and politics. It might be something to0, that I would want to talk with somebody about, if you’re ever curious to read it. Preachers and Sneakers. Just let me know.

Keith: This book does touch on that though briefly. Because he does go down to Falwell, he does he has those experiences but it’s told through his eyes, it’s told through his his rules, you know where he’s at in following the rules. So it’s not delved into, but he does touch on the subject of the religious right and the mega churches and how do you navigate your way through that and how do they navigate their way through the laws, which I found an interesting thing. I think it’s something you could dive deeper into at some point or something.

Paul: Right you are! You finished this yesterday. I finished this a few months back and my memory is wonderfully short in some ways because you’re 100% right there. What’s the word? Extremism. He touches on extremism quite a bit towards the end if I’m remembering those extremes, such as Jerry Falwell or, forgive me if I’m mixing some of that up, but I know that he mentioned there’s these factions. End of the world sort of Revelation-types within Christianity where they’re trying to make the end of the world happen according to the book of Revelation. And some of the extreme beliefs and things that they’re literally doing to make that happen. But I love too that he he paired that up with like the other versions of extreme interpretations of Revelation. Like maybe Revelations was simply code, and it didn’t happen, and it won’t happen. Maybe it’s less of a prophecy and more of like a coded letter of what was going on then. It was interesting how he was pairing up extremism.

Keith: Yeah to some extent, Falwell was earlier, but towards the end he does talk about that. When he comes to the New Testament because he’s also talking about the snake handling and that version of faith and yet it’s kind of marked in, well it’s in the Old Testament. But the new testament there’s some of that where he talks about you know the New Testament is talking mainly about giving up your wealth and and being poor and giving stuff away how does that fit in with what’s happening now with the with the mega churches you know kind of that right that aspect.

Paul: Yeah this is making me want to give this book to my to a lot of people family and friends because actually I forgot a little bit of some of those pieces that’s really things that make you go “huh?!”

Keith: Yeah. You’re about to pull out another question?

Paul: I was about to pull out another question. There’s a whole bunch of them here actually.
[selects a piece of paper with a question on it]
We answered this one. Did the plot move along?
[selects another piece of paper with a different question on it]
How controversial are the issues in the book?

Keith: The way he writes about it, I didn’t find anything to be controversial. Some of the things he wrote about were a struggle for him. But he also makes it very clear that there are a lot of different ways to to read this. Is just my interpretation of how I’m dealing with it. So it seemed like there’s really not much controversy to what he wrote. He did bring up a really interesting thing about translations. Between miscarriage and like how it fits into the abortion and pro-life pro-choice issue.

Paul: Remind me of what that comparison was? I vaguely remember it. If you remember?

Keith: It came to be a translation between oh Exodus 21 22. Page 3 14. If you want to follow along. About how there’s a Hebrew word for losing her offspring, which a lot of people translate as miscarriage, but it can also be translated as premature birth. So there’s different websites that deal with how abortion and the Bible, actually the Bible kind of from his view allows for both sides to use it. Which i found to be really interesting because obviously the Bible growing updated by what can be used to pretty much say whatever you want to say depending on where you’re where you’re studying from and where you’re pulling from. But I just thought that was probably the most controversial thing he brought up really was abortion. How it can be used in different ways. And if you think of the Bible, you think of the controversial views in this day and age where you think about being gay or abortion or wealth. He kind of touched a bit on wealth when he comes to the mega churches and different aspects of all that. But an abortion. He didn’t really talk on homosexuality much at all because right as he said it can depend on translation it can be depend on on where you’re coming from like what what background. If you’re strict Jewish or not. As he said he writes for Esquire so he wrote it in a very palatable way that no one will really be offended by. But he also provides enough information that you can really dig into it on your own if you want which i appreciated that.

Paul: I appreciated that as well. And I like too that he gave enough for me, he gave enough of his own opinion too. He definitely gave his opinion on those topics like abortion and homosexuality. And just different things like that. I thought it was interesting. I should have asked him this question, but it wasn’t something that he got into, and he did he just didn’t really other than other than just saying like yes that’s something that i wouldn’t really i think in the book. It’s very fatherly in a way, but he is in the book he’s actually a father, he’s becoming a father. I feel like navigating some of these topics and things too it’s like here’s some facts and you you know I’ll kind of tell you a little bit but you have to make up your mind in your own way.

Keith: I think that’s part of what makes it so, because he’s not diving into the heavy subjects. He’s basically like saying here’s my viewpoint. Here’s my journey. Here’s where I’m at here right now as I’m writing this. Figure it out yourself. I looking back, I realized that it is very much a straight white system. Non-white standard viewpoint. And I think that if somebody else were to read this or not receive this but do the same process it would be a very different.

Paul: Oh absolutely. And I feel like he owns that very much. This is coming from my perspective and my experience. Because going back to his wife’s experience, it was a very different experience for her than him.

Keith: Yeah.

Paul: I’m just looking at the clock too. Should we do one more of these questions?

Keith: Sure.

Paul: Unless there’s something else? Or unless you have a question too? Shout one out if you’ve got one.

Keith: I don’t.

Paul: I actually have an answer for this but I am curious to hear yours, and then I’ll share mine. If you had to choose one lesson only that the author was trying to teach, what would it be?

Keith: I was actually thinking about this, because towards the end of the book he talks about how he has realized that he prays, or at least is very grateful and does a lot of gratitude. Which I think is really important but I just finished reading Marie Kondo’s book about sparking joy, because I have a lot, as you can see from my background, I have a lot of stuff in my house that I’m figuring what do I need to maintain. What do i need to keep? What am I hanging on to that I’m just hanging on to for no reason? And the one thing Marie Kondo brings up is as you’re getting rid of stuff so to take a moment and say you. Thank you for your moment in my life. Thank you for this book. Thank you for like her point a lot of times is to say thank you internally for everything so you get out of the car at work, thanks for getting me here safely. Thanks for the road. Thanks. And as I thought about it, it’s like yeah, I was doing that for a while and it’s a really different perspective. And it does work on things. There’s a theory of you know, you choose to be happy, which I think yes sort of is definitely choosing your reaction to things, but having that constant thought of gratitude in there is going to tweak your reaction and make things easier in the long run because you’ll find you’re kind of consistently looking for the silver lining. You’re looking for things to be thankful about and even the tough things. And this goes back to my upbringing in Bible situations, even the tough things you’re thankful for because you’re working your way through. You’ll be either becoming stronger or you’re learning things about yourself you didn’t know before by going through this extremely difficult situation and you can look back and go “ah okay that’s what I learned and I’m thankful for that because it got me to here. So I like the idea, I like his less kind of tours in his lesson of being grateful and being thankful about all the small things as well as big things and I think that’s an important aspect of life.

Paul: I think that there’s something in that that’s similar for myself. Question for you ,just a a follow-up question, is it The Life-changing Magic of Tidying Up or is it Spark Joy? She wrote one after The Changing Magic of Tidying Up.

Keith: It’s The Life-changing Magic of Tidying Up.

Paul: Okay. It’s the first one. Yeah. I had a really similar experience with that book and I think that that’s part of the reason why it’s such a big seller. Because it it doesn’t just deal with cleaning and tidying, it’s actually so much more. It deals with the very very deep deep deep issue of letting go. That’s how I look at that.

Keith: Yeah.

Paul: That’s beautiful. I’m glad. I’m glad that you kind of roped that into AJ’s point because that was my take away of what he was trying to say and what his, where he went with this too. That thing of gratitude. The point that I also thought it was really intriguing or interesting, along that note, was that he kind of said was sometimes it’s not so much that I believe this, but it’s that I’m going through the action and because of the action, belief is coming from that. yeah and i found that to be really interesting.

Keith: it’s falls into the common social thought of fake until you make it yeah you keep doing the thing.

Paul: Yeah.

Keith: You know eventually you’re going to get to where you want to go it’s making the conscious choice every day or every moment to. Yes I’m going to engage with this person and and leave this person better than i found them or at least leave them to be in a better place than we just experienced. You know I’ve done customer service for a long time so you have those moment those interactions with with customers who are just angry and you do whatever you can to all right what can i do to you know take the take the time not just deal with it but take time to be like what’s going on how are you doing okay what’s happening? You seem angry. So why? Is it something I’ve done? Is there something else going on? You know I’m here to listen for you. If you want. Right. The campfire rule, on a daily moment by moment, basis leaving every moment better than you found it. Which is kind of weird.

Paul: I’m hearing you say that Keith, and everything else. I’m hearing you say that and there’s something in that that I’m cringing on. Because oh my gosh that takes so much time and energy.

Keith: Totally that’s a choice you make as well, it’s like I am. I’m gonna invest my time on this. A drive-through coffee place and the person who’s serving me coffee isn’t in the best mood, okay it’s fine. I move on. But there’s also that aspect of like well that person is angry and so I’m gonna feed off of that anger and I’m gonna get upset. It all comes down to, I think, it all comes down to figuring out what you’re gonna invest your time in. If this, if these choices that you’re making on a day-to-day basis are good choices even if you’re just doing them by rote. If you are getting you to a better place, then it’s a beneficial thing. I think that’s what I’m trying to say.

Paul: Yeah.

Keith: I’ve never had coffee yet so i have no idea.

Paul: I follow. I appreciate it. This has been a good conversation. I’m trying to think if I have anything more to say to it other than I don’t. But I do have gratitude. I’m really really glad Keith that you kind of approached this with that “yes and” attitude. I think that’s really cool.

Keith: Very improv.

Paul: Yeah. Very impressed. Before we kind of totally wrap this up, is there anything else? I can’t think of anything else that I want to add to this is there anything else that you want to add or any questions or any thoughts?

Keith: I don’t think so. It’s a good book. It’s a really intriguing and interesting take on what the Bible is and i think it could be enjoyable to anyone. I don’t think you have to have a faith background to really get it. I think the way it’s written is easy enough and it’s such an interesting journey that it’s all right. I don’t know anything about the Bible, let me read this and they’ll still get enjoyment out of it and learn something or and choose to either you know? Dive in more or be like ‘yep that was a good read’. I’m done with it now let me move on.

Paul: Yeah. And it’s very true to AJ Jacobs style. I haven’t read his other stuff but it does make me intrigued because he has a whole, like you said, like I think the first book was reading the encyclopedia from beginning to end. I think he has a book on health where it’s like you know he i think he follows a bunch of exercise routines or something like that. I haven’t read it but it’s very much these experiential things that I feel are very approachable and this is you know goes right along with that. I agree anybody, I think almost anybody could read this and enjoy. Yeah. Cool. Well we also

Keith: I’m just realizing, I’m sorry. I’m just realizing that. So do you know who Peter Greenway is? The film director.

Paul: The film director Peter Greenway? What has he directed? I’m really bad with names.

Keith: The cook, the thief, the wife and lover. Is one book, or one movie he did.

Paul: I haven’t seen it.

Keith: With Ian McGregor. His style is very much, you’d find it intriguing which is probably part of what drew me to the book and draws me to being interested in the first book that he wrote. That AJ wrote about reading the encyclopedia. Encyclopedia-style is very much linear. Here’s point A and i’m going to dive into this, and here’s point B and then here’s point C and point D and point. So he’s very much a list-person. Which I’m realizing that there’s a part of me that is definitely a list-person. Even though I don’t write lists. So there’s something about this book that I really enjoyed because of that. It’s very much about the thought that here’s the first step, second step, third step, fourth step. Let me just keep going through all 12. Or here’s the two. Let me start with the Old Testament go all the way to the New Testament. There’s that completeness about it. Which I appreciated.

Paul: Yeah I appreciate that too. Yeah, it’s not terribly like some of my sentence structures. [laughs]

If anyone wants to know more about AJ Jacobs the author of The Year of Living Biblically you can find him online at www.AJJacobs.com can find out a lot about all of the books that he’s previously written and as well as some that are coming up additionally if you want to find out more information about myself you can go to iamPaulCram.com. There you can rent movies that I’ve worked on, you can see other podcast episodes, you’ll find what I’m reading and what other books are coming up with my book club. There you can even listen to some audio narrations from short stories that I’ve been working on. I appreciate everybody. Let’s keep being kind. Thanks.